[History: this is Mexico's Let Them Eat Cake. ]

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer) 11/12/2018 at 22:30 • Filed to: None

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This Sunday a group of around !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! protested Obrador’s decision to cancel the international airport. The important thing about it isn’t that the protestors were right or wrong... it was how much money they had.

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The so called “Marcha FiFi” was comprised of mostly rich, influential Mexicans. “FiFi” is Obrador’s catch-all term for the Mexican elite or whomever disagrees with him (which has been mostly the Mexican elite to be honest). The march is odd because the privileged never march here.

The march was odd because many people were caught with xenophobic and classist propaganda about the migrants and those who voted for Obrador

The march was odd because legislators whose party supported curtailing public-space protesting rights in Mexico City had attended this protest in a public space.

The march was odd because people compared Obrador to Maduro even if there’s no indication that Obrador would govern like him at all or that Mexico’s economy is at all comparable to Venezuela’s .

The march was odd because hundreds of people drove in, and many of them had cups of Starbucks coffee.

But those 7000 protestors, be them right or wrong about the airport... they look like fucking assholes on TV. They look like people who do not have a basic understanding of what country they live in. They look like the kind of people that think donating 10 dollars a year to UNICEF will end poverty. A “let them eat cake bunch”

Which why it doesn’t matter if they’re right or wrong about the airport. What matters is that they weren’t there to protest the abuse of power by Peña Nieto when the government murdered 43 people and covered it up. They never protested working conditions or long hours or bad pays or bad schools.

They only care about the airport... which seems to have become a symbol of who has the power in the country. The rich want the airport, the working class doesn’t. Which is the worst part.

No matter where the airport gets built, the so called “abusive” contractors will keep their contracts. So they won’t lose a penny! The Mexican tourism industry will loose a lot of money by any estimate, and so will Mexico’s value as a foreign investment . Which sure... mostly benefits the rich and the able here... so only the rich will suffer from this displacement.

But what if instead of canceling an airport, they got law enforcement to investigate cases of corruption and money laundering in the airport? What if instead of hurting the rich they start to fucking tax them at a rate that is adequate (by that I mean raise the taxes)?

The thing about this march is that everyone is wrong because instead of looking for solutions we looked for reasons to fight. So no one looks good now. We all look like idiots.

Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch > Spanfeller is a twat 11/12/2018 at 22:40

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The cancellation  of the airport is one of the dumber things I’ve seen y’all do.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Spanfeller is a twat 11/12/2018 at 22:49

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Haven’t 4 of the rnways already been completed? I don’t get what they plan to do, as the surrounding area has already been cleared. You can’t build on it as the process to rip up to run pipes, seweres would be insane. 

Spanfeller is a twat > Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch 11/12/2018 at 22:57

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As with everything else here: it could be exponentially worse, but I agree, it’s up there with importing radioactive milk. 

Spanfeller is a twat > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 11/12/2018 at 22:59

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They’re planning to make an “ecological” park because one of the main concerns of the public in regard to the airport was the enviroment.

Except that the alternative’s Environmental impact analysis hasn’t been done according to the incoming  Secretary of Transportation. 

DipodomysDeserti > Spanfeller is a twat 11/12/2018 at 23:03

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A 7k person protest in a city of almost 9 million seems pretty insignificant.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Spanfeller is a twat 11/12/2018 at 23:10

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 What if instead of hurting the rich they start to fucking tax them at a rate that is adequate (by that I mean raise the taxes)?

Isn’t Mexico’s highest individual rate 35%? And the corporate rate 30%? What rate would be “adequate”?

Spanfeller is a twat > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/12/2018 at 23:11

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at least 70 % on the top tier for individual taxes. 

Spanfeller is a twat > DipodomysDeserti 11/12/2018 at 23:14

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I mean... it isn’t about the attendance. It’s about the coverage on the media about it.

The largest one we’ve had in the last two decades or so was the Marcha Blanca... with 200,000, and the protest againts Peña Nieto, where 46,000 people showed up.

Then there’s Obrador’s fake inaugural in 2006; around a million people attended... but I struggle calling that a march. 

Spanfeller is a twat > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/12/2018 at 23:16

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I just threw a number... I know. But I think it’s very important that both the tax burden shifts towards the richest a bit more and that said burden increases on the very top earners.

35% is the top tier for personal income, but it maxes out at around 150,000 dollars a year; it’s very low. I’d wager millions of people earn a lot more than that, so the rich have an unfair advantage when it comes to personal income taxes; it’s basically a flat tax....

Which is why the burden should be shifted up a lot more. 

DipodomysDeserti > Spanfeller is a twat 11/12/2018 at 23:46

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I mean... it isn’t about the attendance. It’s about the coverage on the media about it.

*realized Mexico has been running the fake news game a lot longer than you.

Spanfeller is a twat > DipodomysDeserti 11/12/2018 at 23:55

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If anything, many of DJT’s dirty tricks were invented and perfected here! 

DipodomysDeserti > Spanfeller is a twat 11/13/2018 at 00:13

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Mexican and American leaders in a nutshell.

Spanfeller is a twat > DipodomysDeserti 11/13/2018 at 00:20

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Contracts? Legal propositions?

Fuck that. 

FatherMcKenzie > Spanfeller is a twat 11/13/2018 at 08:15

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Welcome to Brazil two years ago. Soon the elite will find a bullshit way to impeach the president in a “diplomatic” coup and install some fucking God awful p resident that strips everyone of their rights. While the  country devolves into absolute chaos, the media will say non-stop that the fault is with the party of the working class and the country will elect a neo nazi with a single digit IQ to run the country. Good times all around!

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Spanfeller is a twat 11/13/2018 at 09:34

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You mean the max paid in taxes is $150,000 a year or that all annual  income earned after you reach the threshold of $150k is taxed at 35%?

Spanfeller is a twat > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/13/2018 at 09:58

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The top bracket goes from 150,000-onwards. It’s 35%+a flat fee. 

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Spanfeller is a twat 11/13/2018 at 10:40

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So if I make $250k a year, you want the government to take $70k out of the $100k that’s over the current threshold? What is the incentive for me to do all that extra work if the govt takes the vast majority of what I’m going to earn ? Under the current system, I would pay $87, 500 in taxes, or $35,ooo more than the person who makes $150k -- that’s not fair?

Spanfeller is a twat > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/13/2018 at 11:13

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What I’m trying to say is that the top bracket is too low, we need more brackets so that they represent the real economic capacities of the Mexican elites. Think of it this way: a small business owner would share the 35% bracket with Carlos Fucking Slim. Is that not absolutely unfair to the small business owner?

I think that raising taxes and shifting the burden towards the very rich is of upmost importance. Mexico is very polarized socioeconomically and we need to have less super rich people here. Economics works this way: you tax the rich a lot so that you can invest that money on the poor, entrepreneurs, and on infrastructure so that the economy grows and everyone becomes richer; it’s not a zero sum game at all. If the rich paid more taxes they’d be richer!

The highest income bracket is at 174,000 dollars-onwards (the figure I gave you was 2016’s; it’s been updated for inflation). At that rate there’s a 4,500 dollar flat fee and also a 35% tax on the remainder.... Someone just breaking into that bracket would pay 36.5% of their income.... whereas someone earning.... idunno, lets say six million dollars a year... they’d pay 35.04%... AKA: less taxes.  

I think we should have more brackets so that those two groups don’t share a bracket and also get rid of the flat fee.

So,

if you earn 150-200k pay 35%

if you earn 200-500k pay 40%

If you earn 500-900k pay 55%

If you earn 0.9-1.5M pay 60%

If you earn 1.5-5M pay 65%

If you earn 5-10M pay 70%

If you earn 10-20M pay 75%

If you earn 20M-onwards, you should be taxed at 80%.

My economic thinking is that rich people should be discouraged from becoming super-rich. This way they have less economic capacity to expand their industries; smaller companies overall do mean an economy is more expensive, but it also means the wealth is dispersed in a better way and there’s more local specialization, and competition.

Obviously you need to take into consideration that the most expensive rent in Mexico City is in Polanco at an average of 2000 dollars/month, and that even that is an outlier; Mexico is significantly cheaper than the US, so even someone being taxed in the 35% rate is living like a fucking king. The issue isn’t that those people need to pay more taxes... no, the very richest need to pay more taxes.

TL;DR: No... I don’t think the government should give the rich incentives to be richer, and I don’t think it’s unfair that the rich are taxed a lot more than the poor or even those who are less rich.

An economy works with movement of money; so ideally you want people to spend the most money they can relative to what they earn.

So lets say the poor can’t spend as much money because of their income, and the rich earn a lot more money that they can spend (lets be frank, Carlos Slim will never spend all of his 64billion dollars). The middle class has the healthiest ratio of income vs expenses; they spend as much money as they need, invest in their retirement, and have disposable income.

So a healthy economy wants to have the least poor and rich people possible; which is why rich people pay the highest taxes and the poor pay the lowest or no taxes. This to encourage poor people out of poverty and to limit the wealth of the richest. 

Spanfeller is a twat > FatherMcKenzie 11/13/2018 at 11:19

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I’d struggle to compare Obrador or his party to Rouseff or PT. (Full disclosure: i’m not extremely well versed in Brazilian politics, so mind my ignorance ).

Lula and Rouseff ran a government with a strong focus on reducing poverty. The main economic tool for that is tax increases on the rich and economic development with that money.

Obrador’s vision is not that... He’s promising not to raise taxes no matter what, and taxes here are way too low, which creates a polarized society and prohibits fairness everywhere; be it education, healthcare, or even job opportunities .

While the airport is a stupid project, canceling is worse because the rich will loose money, and the rich need to have more money! so that they can be taxed more!

If Obrador was anything like Lula he’d be investigating the airport (which incidentally, he wanted to privatize instead of canceling) , sending the corrupted contractors to jail, and raising taxes on the rich that will benefit from it!

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Spanfeller is a twat 11/13/2018 at 11:34

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Degree in econ, so thanks for explaining economics. What you’d do is incentivize the wealthy to flee Mexico, or at least “disguise ” (legally or otherwise) as much of their income as possible to avoid taxes. Hell, people with supercars do that in the US just to avoid paying taxes (Hello Montana!), so you think the wealthy Mexicans are going to just roll over and let the government take 80%? I think not. Not only that, but you’re incentivizing even the people who are making under $1m a year to do so as well. Anytime tax rates — i.e., what the government is seizing from you — exceed 50% of the income you are earning — i.e., you actually are working for — the govt encourages them to take their productive behavior elsewhere if possible and, if not, d i scourag es them from engaging in productive behavior. Why not take a vacation at the end of the year if the govt is going to take 55% or more of what you make that month ? And guess what, those people probably aren’t vacationing in Mexico! Instead, they’re going to San Antonio to buy stuff, or Dallas or Houston or any number of other cities in the US and elsewhere. 

Spanfeller is a twat > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/13/2018 at 11:50

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Well.. you solved it yourself! I don’t think an economy should want more rich people... so if a rich person has a choice between working or taking a month long vacation, they should totally take the vacation. The money they don’t earn is money someone else earns!

On tax avoidance and brain drain:

Tax avoidance can be reduced with a better IRS system. Mexico already has a very modernized one on which they could improve if they invested a little bit more on it.

By investing in entrepreneurs and public education you pretty much make up for the brain drain. Remember that in order to leave a country and start a business in another one you need to have money to begin with; so those that would “leave” Mexico because of taxes would already be rich. What you want is for pooer people to have an opportunity to escape said poverty.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Spanfeller is a twat 11/13/2018 at 12:24

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You truly believe that “the money they don’t earn is money someone else earns”? Someone making minimum wage with no education is going to do the job the lawyer or engineer or computer programmer or ... whatever does?

And that if the wealthy (and their money to invest and their taxes) leave Mexico, the country will be better off for it? Where is that money to invest “in entrepreneurs and public education” going to come from? Just going to soak the remaining citizens for even more taxes? 

Moreover, lol at the Mexican (or any) govt being able to appreciably reduce tax avoidance. The people with real coin are always going to be a step or two ahead of the system (or paying for loopholes to be created). The superwealthy pay the wealthy to figure out how to avoid paying the taxes, usually successfully for long periods of time. The govt may catch some of them some of the time, but the vast majority is never caught.

Spanfeller is a twat > haveacarortwoorthree2 11/13/2018 at 12:59

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Obviously not in such a drastic sense. But the month long vacation a successful lawyer or programmer takes could mean that unexperienced and younger lawyers and programmers have a go at working and earning more money . What you want is for more people to have economic opportunities, not to concentrate the wealth on the very few who already have enough money to even consider taking a month long vacation out of pocket in the first place .

Also I don’t think we’d be better if the rich left, I just think that we won’t be as effected as they say; we have a surplus of college educated people in underpaying, underperforming jobs. They have “brains” to take over the infrastructure left behind by some rich person that moved elsewhere . Obviously I don’t want anyone displaced, but if someone thinks that because they have to pay higher taxes they should leave their home country and their businesses behind , well... they have free will, don’t they?

On tax avoidance... well that’s more to my point; rich people shouldn’t be rich enough to sway public policy. Even with that in mind, we’ve been reducing tax avoidance a lot in the last decade, something like 50% less than in 2006, and if guidelines be came stricter , it’d only go lower.

But I’m looking at it as an engineering student, so of course my analysis is probably going to be shortsighted or bad  compared to that of an economist. So what would you suggest we do in order to reduce income inequality, poverty, and improve productivity? 

Your boy, BJR > DipodomysDeserti 11/13/2018 at 13:16

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More like

FatherMcKenzie > Spanfeller is a twat 11/13/2018 at 14:35

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Most of what PT did was fantastic for my country, even if it made them unpopular, but sadly t hey never taxed the rich more than any other goverent before them. It’s definetly among the things I wish they had done differently, and there are not a lot of them. But far play, I’m also not well versed in current international politics (We have enough to worry about on our  own, no n eed to lose even more sleep) to know how well Lula and Obrador relate, but the elite protest is such a trigger for us Brazilians that I can't help but draw parallels.

Spanfeller is a twat > FatherMcKenzie 11/13/2018 at 18:45

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Lets just all move to Uruguay, Mujica seems to have shit under control there. 

Spanfeller is a twat > FatherMcKenzie 11/13/2018 at 18:57

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Also.... this is of concern:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-12/bolsonaro-has-investors-racing-to-brazil-amid-flight-from-mexico

I mean... Obrador is an idiot... but he’s not fucking Bolsanaro. 

FatherMcKenzie > Spanfeller is a twat 11/13/2018 at 19:37

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I honestly can’t describe Bolsonaro without resorting to some pretty offensive words. He’s not only absolute scum, he’s also one of th e most dumb people I hav e ever seen in my life, and I li ve in a country wi th people dumb enough to elect him, so that’s saying something. But yeah, I have researched how to migrate/seek asylum in Uruguay already, because shit here is about to become proper terrible.

Spanfeller is a twat > FatherMcKenzie 11/13/2018 at 19:40

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Perhaps it’d be faster to just move there without claiming asylum just yet (even if you’re one of the minorities Bolsonaro loves hating). Vitor, another Brazilian oppo, also sort of had plans to leave Brazil.... But i’ve heard nothing of MCWS

FatherMcKenzie > Spanfeller is a twat 11/14/2018 at 07:33

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It’s definetly faster (and just better in general, I think) to just migrate there . The process is fairly simple and straight forward. I do have a 2nd option since I can opt for a Portuguese citizenship, thankfully.